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How strong is Strongpoint

MessagePosté: Jeu Avr 24, 2008 6:25 am
de Tichy
By definition, strongpoint is well prepared position with good view and clear arc of fire to suppress enemy attack. L! cleverly points out that strongpoint hex is obstacle of los - however, being obstacle for los it also has no advantage over the troops in trenches.

MG positioned in strongpoint can not fire over trech if occupied by friendly troops. Which would be clear if strongpoint would not have elevation difference. However, Strongpoint still hinders the LOS even from higher elevation so it has to present some larger, well prepared position like bunker or well walled, clearly higher and defended position.

Strongpoints have additional die roll modifier for direct or indirect fire, however they are very vulrenable to close assault - in fact, even from any direction. It seldon requires artillery concentration or flamethrower to clear srtongpoint hex (or even shock troops).

Entry to strongpoint may be trough any side - which is rather odd, taking into a consideration that the purpose of strongpoint is to be (much)harder to overcome than ordinary trench line.

Of course, if front of strongpoint is infested with barbwire, it is bit harder to walk in. However, most scenarios do not allocate such quantities of wire to lay very basic protection for strongpoints against direct close assault.

MessagePosté: Jeu Avr 24, 2008 12:26 pm
de Arnauld
About elevation of strongpoints : I have read a similar comment on Consimworld. My question is : could a unit in a strongpoint, even if there is a difference of elevation, fire above friendly units without hitting them ?

About the fact that strongpoints are easily close-assaultable (is it english ? :lol: ). It is true that each time I launch a close assault attack against a srongpoint, I check the yellow player aid for DRM. Each time, I say myself : "no DRM, seems strange... good thing for me I will be able to conquer it". Unrealistic ? Home rules ?

Perhaps Perry More implies something else when he speaks about "strongpoint". Perhaps it is something more generic than "bunker", something made of brush and mud (?)

MessagePosté: Jeu Avr 24, 2008 12:59 pm
de Tichy
Well, if strongpoint is made from the most available ingredient - mud that is, I would certainly not dignify it by calling it strongpoint. In that case there should be significant modifier (I can imagine those troops trying to scramble up slippery mud slope... :D ) Besides, that mudflat would probably not be significant elevation difference, nor obtain same protective value as building.

I would suggest two changes on the rules.

1. +1 modifier for attack against strongpoint in close assault. MG extra is cumulative modifier.

2. Unit can only enter/exit strongpoint over the hexside that points towards friendly trenches and home (eg. exit/entry from back only).

In fact, way the strongpoints are arranged, enemy has to first clear the trenches behind the strongpoint before entering. That would also embrace the infantry technique where units inflirtate enemy lines, isolate strongpoints and leave it for later specially equipped troops to mop up.

Of course, for critical ones you have to wipe off by artillery concentration.

MessagePosté: Jeu Avr 24, 2008 1:21 pm
de Arnauld
We should talk about it with the RealWeapons' designer. If he replies ...

MessagePosté: Mar Avr 29, 2008 5:57 pm
de santino
Some of the best examples of hard ( ie : made of stone or concrete ) strongpoints can be found in the German defensive lines built in Alsace and running from North to South along the Vosges. Seek for locations like "Le Linge", "Le Vieil Armand-Hartmanswillerskopf", and a location - I forgot its name, just remember it is in the North of my region :roll: - where was probably built the most impressive field fortification of the whole war !

MessagePosté: Mar Avr 29, 2008 7:40 pm
de Tichy
Ah, that's an interesting piece of information - even though, hard for me to walk over and check right away. Perhaps google... :)

I actually thought that strongpoint would refer to real stone/concrete one as the modifier is same as for town hex. Of course I understand that game is not extremely detailed at this, however I guess it would be safe to assume that strongpoint actually means here some truly constructed one.

Prepared trench: ... nchees.jpg

Strongpoint? ... 44-0-l.jpg

Actually, I have seen - or rather lived just next to WWI era strongpoint in Krakow that is currently turned to museum in some parts, it was fairly large so it does really not qualify except on some sections.

MessagePosté: Mar Avr 29, 2008 7:55 pm
de santino
The first is a German Trench : made by engineers and designed to hold the ground. French trenches in the Vosges where simply dug in the ground since the purpose was not the same ( French troops were on the offensive )

The second seems to be a german strongpoint in the same place : as French had seized the crests, German strongpoints were built on the counterslope to negate the superior position of their opponements. As a matter of fact, the German line combining these buildings and the previous trenches was a masterpiece and fulfilled its role for 4 years.

MessagePosté: Mar Avr 29, 2008 8:25 pm
de Tichy
Thanks for the info! What do you think in game terms, should strongpoints receive some benefit against entry from the front and close assault? Designer will probably not answer anytime soon. :)

Of course pictures in question are a bit of exception and that was not the level of preparation everywhere.

I am still bit concerned about their relative weakness and that they encourage unrealistic means to overcome (eg. run trough the doorway). Any ideas to share?

This is from Argonne and probably closer to what is intended in game terms (even though it is hard to fit entire platoon inside):

MessagePosté: Mer Avr 30, 2008 9:58 am
de Tichy
It seems that Infernal Machines do take into account the close assault difficulties over rock wall, town hex and level 1 rubble by columnshift to left, however, strongpoint is not on the list.

Edit: Unit defending Level 1 rubble gains column shift and +2 modifier on CACRT

I would suggest adding strongpoint to the list which give defender column shift (at least). Along with earlier suggestion that unit in SP may fire over own troops in trenches as it has elevation difference.

Another question is. As strongpoints are designed to allow fire against enemy, one inside should not be allowed to fire backwards (eg. assaulting enemy unit should be able to benefit from the strongpoint protection but should not be able to fire to "rear" from it)?[/b]

MessagePosté: Mer Avr 30, 2008 6:15 pm
de santino
Yes, a strongpoint should not allow units to fire backwards if we are to be precise.

Why not a bonus DRM in melée only if attackers moved this turn to engage ? And of course if there is no flamer among them ?

As a matter of fact, I should play the game before trying to change it :oops:

MessagePosté: Mer Avr 30, 2008 6:22 pm
de Tichy
Oh well, flamethrower does have hefty -2 if attacking and it does not even use a shot! (Mere presence is enough to scare defenders...?) :D

Well, SP should at least qualify as building (column shift), not merely a trench. Rather between bulding and rubble, eg (column shift and +1 modifier for attacker).

No one around with game? Do you have both, IM and L!? Or just L!?

MessagePosté: Mer Avr 30, 2008 6:31 pm
de Arnauld
He has nothing yet ! We have to start as soon as possible via Cyberboard, before buying the game... If he likes it !! :lol:

MessagePosté: Ven Mai 02, 2008 10:03 am
de santino
Arnaud a écrit:He has nothing yet !

Intell report. Urgent. Red encryption.

Two landships boxes are converging to Strasbourg, France. One is the second version with these poor trained new counters, but the second is made of seasoned original counters. Moreover, a box of Infernal Machines has clearly been spotted on the same way, with its full lot of deadly weapons. Field Marshall Arnaud is clearly taken off guard and his troops are dispersed in his own shelves. British troops ask permission to counter attack before it is too late.

They're coming !!!

End of transmission.

MessagePosté: Lun Mai 05, 2008 10:58 am
de santino
Tichy a écrit:Oh well, flamethrower does have hefty -2 if attacking and it does not even use a shot! (Mere presence is enough to scare defenders...?)

Hand Flamethrowers have an autonomy of 10s in continous fire and scatter harmlessly if not used at close range : maybe does it simulate short and efficient pressions rather than long and scattering ones ?

MessagePosté: Jeu Mai 08, 2008 5:22 pm
de Tichy
Very true. Actually I tend to think that mere presence of flamethrower is quite effective weapon to reduce opponents morale.